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Carrier Crossing
G-man69
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Posted: Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 05:06 AM UTC
Hi all,

Whilst nearing the end of my current build...just a few figures left to paint...I thought I'd give some thought as to my next build.

I've a couple of Tamiya 1/35th Universal Carriers to build and wanted to have a go at modelling moving water so had the idea of the Carrier crossing a cobbled stone causeway/ford next to an old stone footbridge...the bridge being too small/weak to take the weight of a vehicle...somewhere in Northern Europe (see sketch below).



The base size will be A4, so not sure at this stage whether one or two vehicles will be used. There will probable be some foot soldiers on the bridge.

The sort of bridge style I'm thinking will be a small single arch like that shown in the image below.



With an adjacent causeway/ford similar to the ones shown in the images below being traversed by the Carrier(s).





My questions are thus:

Do such crossings occur in Northern Europe?

What method(s) are suggested to represent moving water?

Any advice, comments or help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, and cheers, ,

G
RobinNilsson
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Stockholm, Sweden
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Posted: Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 07:44 AM UTC

Fontainejean


Rue Neuve in Mézilles

Google street view so you can "ford" that creek as much as you want
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.7020179,3.171562,3a,75y,55.09h,75.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shAjnEEL799JUZ1qGe2vKTQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
(copy and paste into a browser window)
The bridge could possibly be too narrow for a Bren Carrier.

The 3,75 tons of a loaded Bren Carrier might not be enough to warrant fording if the bridge is wide enough.
I would make the bridge just a fraction too narrow for the carriers so that they need to use the ford due to width restrictions. Maybe tow a gun to add half a foot to the width??
Maybe cut the bridge down to only a pedestrian crossing?


Pont des Anglais somewhere in France (Charente)


New bicycle bridge built next to the old ford somewhere in Thüringen, eastern Germany.


Streitwald in Germany


The European countries were not strangers to the concept.
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 02:45 AM UTC
There's Moissy Ford over the River Dives where German armor had to cross to escape Falaise:
https://kandbhampton.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc02082.jpg
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 04:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The bridge could possibly be too narrow for a Bren Carrier.

The 3,75 tons of a loaded Bren Carrier might not be enough to warrant fording if the bridge is wide enough.
I would make the bridge just a fraction too narrow for the carriers so that they need to use the ford due to width restrictions. Maybe tow a gun to add half a foot to the width??
Maybe cut the bridge down to only a pedestrian crossing?

The European countries were not strangers to the concept.



Hi Robin,

Thank you, as always your invaluable help is much appreciated, you always seem to be able to come up with the goods whenever I've asked a question.

Especially love the first image, that would make a great diorama, but doubt it'd fit on my A4 footprint restriction.

The third image is intriguing, the simplicity of the bridge would make the build both simpler and unusual, and obviously not usable by a Carrier, even a bike might struggle to cross it, especially if it was me riding it, ...very tempted, .

Thanks again for your assistance, and cheers, .

G
G-man69
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Posted: Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 04:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There's Moissy Ford over the River Dives where German armor had to cross to escape Falaise:



Hi Biggles2,

Thank you for taking the time to post the link, much appreciated.

The image you provided has muddied the water (no pun intended) somewhat, . I had pretty much decided to build something inspired by the simple footbridge shown in an image provided by Robin as I know I can make it work on an A4 base, but now I'm torn, .

I'm going to cut my A4 base and rough out something inspired by your image to see if I can make it fit, and work, . Will need to Google and see if I can get more detail of the bridge, etc.

Thanks again, and cheers, .

G
jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 05:38 AM UTC
This one really looks intriguing for sure. I look forward to following along and will be curious to see how you handle the water against the vehicles. Current speed,etc will all come into play here.
J
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 08:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This one really looks intriguing for sure. I look forward to following along and will be curious to see how you handle the water against the vehicles. Current speed,etc will all come into play here.
J



while the tax payer was paying me to tear up stuff with C4 and DET cord I helped a guy blow a bridge like one of the ones in the photo. Had about four inches of water on top it, so there was no sign of a bridge. Or a "blue crossing" that lead to nowhere. Then the guy walked out on the water just like Jesus.
I've always wanted to do a diorama of a bridge like that. Maybe with a Zil truck crossing it.
gary
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 10:55 AM UTC
I've read that Viet Cong had "invisible" bridges like that that were unseen by US pilots.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 03:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I've read that Viet Cong had "invisible" bridges like that that were unseen by US pilots.



that was what i was referring to. Most of those bridges were built by the NVA in very slow moving water. They'd stand out in anykind of a current. The one we blew up was about a half mile west of the Lao border; so I later found out. Water looked like glass on top of it. Tree limbs were tied together leading into it, so aircraft could never see it. SOG found it by accident. The guy whispered that I was standing in the middle of a "red ball", and I didn't even know what a red ball was. Still like to know how they poured concrete underwater!
gary
Golikell
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Noord-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Friday, August 07, 2020 - 12:57 AM UTC
Yet another one of your builds to follow!!!
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, August 07, 2020 - 04:53 AM UTC
[/quote]that was what i was referring to. Most of those bridges were built by the NVA in very slow moving water. They'd stand out in anykind of a current. The one we blew up was about a half mile west of the Lao border; so I later found out. Water looked like glass on top of it. Tree limbs were tied together leading into it, so aircraft could never see it. SOG found it by accident. The guy whispered that I was standing in the middle of a "red ball", and I didn't even know what a red ball was. Still like to know how they poured concrete underwater!
gary[/quote]

Hi Gary, Biggles2,

Thanks both for taking the time to read and contribute, it's much appreciated, .

The idea of showing an NVA truck crossing one of their invisible bridges sounds a great idea, , if you do one I'm sure it would be a popular build.

Not sure how they poured the concrete, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that concrete will set underwater, so I googled it and found the following...

..."Yes, concrete doesn’t ‘ dry’ when it sets, it completes a chemical reaction. Any drying weakens the reaction so concrete that sets underwater can be stronger than concrete that sets in air. The trick when pouring underwater is to ensure the concrete is fed to the final position without ‘falling’ through the water."...

Hope that is of interest, ?

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
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Posted: Friday, August 07, 2020 - 05:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This one really looks intriguing for sure. I look forward to following along and will be curious to see how you handle the water against the vehicles. Current speed,etc will all come into play here.
J



Hi Jerry,

Methinks this one might be more difficult than 'snow', .

As you say it can only be modelled in a dynamic way, unlike fallen snow which can be shown in a static way.

The flow of the water, how it moves against objects, and how those objects move the water, e.g. the tracks of the Carrier(s) as they move forward through the water...so many things to think about, .

Think the painting of any figures will be the least of my worries this time, .

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, August 07, 2020 - 05:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Yet another one of your builds to follow!!!



Hi Erwin,

I still have some way to go before I get close to matching your prolific build capabilities...and I'll never match the complexity or scale of yours, .

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
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Posted: Friday, August 07, 2020 - 05:16 AM UTC
Hi all,

Having studied my two favourite images, I decided I'd try to map out a setting based on the one provided by Biggles2, so sketched it out roughly on an A4 base to see if I could fit it in (see image below).



I think it works, and I think I can fit two Carriers without it looking too cluttered as they're quite diminutive, .

Having decided it might work, I spent this afternoon hacking and glueing foam and card to get an idea of how it might look in 3D (see images below).













The water above the ford will be at a slightly higher level than that below the ford so that I get the chance to have a go at modelling the water moving fairly rapidly.

The last image has a piece of card positioned to show where the footbridge will go, and I've positioned a part built Carrier for scale.

I think in principle it works...any thoughts or suggestions will be greatly appreciated, .

Cheers, ,

G
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,375 posts
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Posted: Friday, August 07, 2020 - 07:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text


that was what i was referring to. Most of those bridges were built by the NVA in very slow moving water. They'd stand out in anykind of a current. The one we blew up was about a half mile west of the Lao border; so I later found out. Water looked like glass on top of it. Tree limbs were tied together leading into it, so aircraft could never see it. SOG found it by accident. The guy whispered that I was standing in the middle of a "red ball", and I didn't even know what a red ball was. Still like to know how they poured concrete underwater!
gary[/quote]

Hi Gary, Biggles2,

Thanks both for taking the time to read and contribute, it's much appreciated, .

The idea of showing an NVA truck crossing one of their invisible bridges sounds a great idea, , if you do one I'm sure it would be a popular build.

Not sure how they poured the concrete, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that concrete will set underwater, so I googled it and found the following...

..."Yes, concrete doesn’t ‘ dry’ when it sets, it completes a chemical reaction. Any drying weakens the reaction so concrete that sets underwater can be stronger than concrete that sets in air. The trick when pouring underwater is to ensure the concrete is fed to the final position without ‘falling’ through the water."...

Hope that is of interest, ?

Cheers, ,

G [/quote]

honestly, it's still past me, and I'm an engineer. Still I always admired the NVA combat engineers for their ability to adjust to an adverse situation. They used a lot more concrete than most realize yet you never saw them mix a single bag, or even found an empty bag laying around.
gary

P.S. I loathed blue crossings! Never run two or more tracks in there at a time. If one gets hung up, you now have two sitting ducks. Plus you tend to move slowly, and the other guy loves this. In my area, we always had one track ready to pull another out one way or the other, and the poor guy that gets to attach the cables will be nasty for awhile. I walked!
cheyenne
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Posted: Sunday, August 09, 2020 - 02:29 AM UTC
Nice start G , will be following !!
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 03:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

honestly, it's still past me, and I'm an engineer. Still I always admired the NVA combat engineers for their ability to adjust to an adverse situation. They used a lot more concrete than most realize yet you never saw them mix a single bag, or even found an empty bag laying around.
gary

P.S. I loathed blue crossings! Never run two or more tracks in there at a time. If one gets hung up, you now have two sitting ducks. Plus you tend to move slowly, and the other guy loves this. In my area, we always had one track ready to pull another out one way or the other, and the poor guy that gets to attach the cables will be nasty for awhile. I walked!



Hi Gary,

Never knew that about the amount of concrete they used, I always imagined that all sides in the Vietnam conflict tended towards temporary structures, with maybe the exception being airbases.

Interesting comment on water crossings about only one vehicle at a time. Would that apply to non prepared crossings only, or would it apply even if there was a solid 'engineered' bed, such as a stone ford?

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 03:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nice start G , will be following !!



Hi Cheyenne,

Thank you, always good to have you along for the ride...so to speak, .

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 04:02 AM UTC
Hi all,

Started spreading Das on top of the foam/card, put an undercoat of white glue down first and just spread it about using finger and thumb (see images below), . Not worried about it being too smooth and uniform as I'm hoping it will help give a random stone appearance later.





Once the Das surface had skimmed over I spent a bit of time pencilling in an idea of how the stonework might appear (see image below).



Whilst waiting for the previously marked areas to dry properly I decided to have a think about the footbridge's location and started to cobble together a couple of buttresses (see images below).









Decided that it might add more interest if some parts of the retaining wall had collapsed, the blue foam blocks will be covered in Das to give more of a stone appearance. Have also added a few small stones into the 'riverbed' whilst it was still malleable, once dry I'll glue fine sand to the whole area.

Decided to have a bit of a carve-up of the ford surface to see how it might look prior to painting (see image below).



I'm not following my pencilled stonework religiously, just using it as a general guide, .

Cheers, .

G
jrutman
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 06:00 AM UTC
Nice multi-level concept dio going on now! Lots of interest with just the groundwork.
I am envious because my current project involves very gently rolling terrain so I don't have the luxury of the dramatic terrain.
J
Biggles2
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 11:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text



The flow of the water, how it moves against objects, and how those objects move the water, e.g. the tracks of the Carrier(s) as they move forward through the water...so many things to think about...


The visible trails and streams of flowing water around obstacles can be achieved with strands of cotton wool worked into a top layer of clear liquid acrylic (or acrylic varnish) on the "water" surface.
G-man69
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Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 02:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nice multi-level concept dio going on now! Lots of interest with just the groundwork.
I am envious because my current project involves very gently rolling terrain so I don't have the luxury of the dramatic terrain.
J



Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the positive feedback, .

As for envious, well, that's how I feel everytime I follow your figure builds, and your gently rolling terrain with the long grass you have shown some of your figures moving through is a work of art in itself, .

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
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Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 02:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The visible trails and streams of flowing water around obstacles can be achieved with strands of cotton wool worked into a top layer of clear liquid acrylic (or acrylic varnish) on the "water" surface.



Hi Biggles2,

Thanks for the tip on modelling moving water, I'll 'google' it and see if I can find any 'How To...' information that's easy to follow, .

Cheers, ,

G
G-man69
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 02:45 AM UTC
Hi all,

Slow progress today, managed a couple of hours of scribing stones...tedious work, but hopefully worth it in the end, .

Decided to give a heavily thinned 'burnt umber' oil wash to the scribed areas so as to see how it looks so far (see images below).







Hopefully get the rest of the ford surface scribed tomorrow, then it'll be the embankment retaining wall later in the week.

Please feel free to comment as you see fit, cheers, ,

G
cheyenne
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Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 03:38 AM UTC
Nice work G , really coming along !!